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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT |
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA |
2 |
______________________________ |
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : |
PLAINTIFF, : |
4 : |
VS. : C. A. NO. 98-1232 |
5 : |
MICROSOFT CORPORATION, ET AL. : |
6 DEFENDANTS : |
______________________________: |
7 STATE OF NEW YORK, ET AL. : |
PLAINTIFFS : |
8 |
VS. : C. A. NO. 98-1233 |
9 : |
MICROSOFT CORPORATION, ET AL. : |
10 DEFENDANTS : |
_______________________________ |
11 WASHINGTON, D. C. |
NOVEMBER 16, 1998 |
12 (A. M. SESSION) |
13 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS |
BEFORE THE HONORABLE THOMAS P. JACKSON |
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COURT REPORTER: PHYLLIS MERANA |
20 6816 U. S. COURTHOUSE |
3RD & CONSTITUTION AVE., N.W. |
21 WASHINGTON, D. C. |
202-202-202 |
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--- EXCERPT OF DEPOSITION TRANSCRIPT --- |
9 |
1 QUESTION: YES. THE INDUSTRY AND MICROSOFT TRACKS |
2 WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS BROWSER MARKET SHARE; CORRECT, SIR? |
3 ANSWER: NO. |
4 QUESTION: NO? DOES MICROSOFT TRACK BROWSER |
5 MARKET SHARE? |
6 ANSWER: I'VE SEEN USAGE SHARE. |
7 QUESTION: YOU'VE SEEN USAGE SHARE? |
8 ANSWER: UH-HUH. BUT NOT -- MARKET SHARE USUALLY |
9 REFERS TO SOMETHING RELATED TO -- NOT TO USAGE. AND WITH |
10 BROWSERS, I'VE SEEN MOSTLY USAGE. NOW, SOME PEOPLE MIGHT |
11 REFER TO THAT AS A MARKET SHARE, BUT IT'S NOT A MARKET |
12 SHARE. |
13 QUESTION: WHAT IS A MARKET SHARE? |
14 ANSWER: WELL, WHEN I THINK OF A MARKET SHARE, I |
15 THINK OF WHERE YOU'RE COMPARING THE REVENUE OF ONE COMPANY |
16 TO THE REVENUE OF ANOTHER COMPANY. |
17 QUESTION: THE TOTAL REVENUE OF A COMPANY? |
18 ANSWER: NO, THE REVENUE RELATED TO ONE COMPANY'S |
19 PRODUCT TO THE REVENUE OF ANOTHER COMPANY'S PRODUCT. |
20 QUESTION: AND THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK OF WHEN YOU |
21 USE THE TERM "MARKET SHARE"; IS THAT YOUR TESTIMONY? |
22 ANSWER: USUALLY. |
23 QUESTION: ARE YOU AWARE OF DOCUMENTS WITHIN |
24 MICROSOFT THAT DESCRIBE BROWSER SHARE AS THE COMPANY'S |
25 NUMBER ONE GOAL? |
10 |
1 ANSWER: NO. I'M AWARE OF DOCUMENTS WITHIN PAUL |
2 MARITZ'S GROUP THAT MAY HAVE STATED THAT. |
3 QUESTION: IS PAUL MARITZ'S GROUP WITHIN |
4 MICROSOFT? |
5 ANSWER: YES, BUT HIS -- HE DOESN'T SET THE |
6 COMPANY-WIDE GOALS. |
7 QUESTION: MR. MARITZ YOU IDENTIFIED LAST WEEK AS |
8 BEING A GROUP VICE-PRESIDENT; IS THAT CORRECT? |
9 ANSWER: UH-HUH. SEVERAL TIMES. |
10 QUESTION: AND HE IS THE GROUP VICE-PRESIDENT WITH |
11 RESPONSIBILITY FOR WINDOWS; IS THAT CORRECT? |
12 ANSWER: THAT'S AMONG HIS RESPONSIBILITIES. |
13 QUESTION: AND INCLUDED IN HIS RESPONSIBILITIES |
14 WAS INTERNET EXPLORER; IS THAT CORRECT? |
15 ANSWER: OUR BROWSING TECHNOLOGY WAS PART OF THAT |
16 GROUP. |
17 QUESTION: WAS INTERNET EXPLORER PART OF THAT |
18 GROUP? |
19 ANSWER: YES. |
20 QUESTION: NOW, DID YOU EVER TELL MR. MARITZ THAT |
21 BROWSER SHARE WAS NOT THE COMPANY'S NUMBER ONE GOAL? |
22 ANSWER: NO. |
23 QUESTION: YOU KNEW MR. MARITZ WAS TELLING PEOPLE |
24 THAT BROWSER SHARE WAS THE COMPANY'S NUMBER ONE GOAL, DID |
25 YOU NOT, SIR? |
11 |
1 ANSWER: I KNEW THAT MR. MARITZ WAS SAYING TO |
2 PEOPLE THAT THE -- THAT A TOP GOAL AND PERHAPS NUMBER ONE |
3 GOAL FOR HIS GROUP WAS BROWSER USAGE SHARE. |
4 QUESTION: INTERPRETING WHAT MR. MARITZ HAS |
5 COMMUNICATED IN LIGHT OF THAT, DO YOU KNOW HOW MR. MARITZ |
6 CAME TO THE VIEW THAT BROWSER SHARE WAS THE NUMBER ONE GOAL? |
7 ANSWER: WELL, I THINK HE WAS AWARE OF THE |
8 INCREASING POPULARITY OF THE INTERNET AND THE GROWING USAGE |
9 OF THE INTERNET AND FELT THAT ALL THE MANY, MANY INNOVATIONS |
10 WE WERE DOING IN WINDOWS, THAT A PARTICULAR FOCUS HAD TO BE |
11 DOING THE BEST JOB ON THE INTERNET AND INTERNET BROWSING |
12 FEATURES OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM AND SEEING IF WE COULD |
13 INNOVATE ENOUGH TO MAKE PEOPLE PREFER TO USE THAT TECHNOLOGY |
14 FROM US. |
15 QUESTION: MR. GATES, ISN'T IT THE CASE THAT YOU |
16 TOLD MR. MARITZ THAT BROWSER SHARE WAS A VERY, VERY |
17 IMPORTANT GOAL AND THAT'S WHY HE BELIEVED IT? |
18 ANSWER: I GUESS NOW WE'RE DELVING INTO THE INNER |
19 WORKINGS OF PAUL MARITZ'S MIND AND HOW HE COMES TO |
20 CONCLUSIONS? |
21 QUESTION: WELL, LET ME TRY TO ASK YOU A QUESTION |
22 THAT WON'T YOU REQUIRE TO DELVE INTO ANYBODY ELSE'S MIND. |
23 DID YOU TELL MR. MARITZ THAT BROWSER SHARE WAS A |
24 VERY, VERY IMPORTANT GOAL? |
25 ANSWER: I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT BROWSER SHARE |
12 |
1 BEING IMPORTANT. |
2 QUESTION: I'M NOT ASKING YOU WHAT HE SAID TO YOU. |
3 I'M NOT ASKING YOU WHAT TOPIC YOU TALKED ABOUT. I'M ASKING |
4 YOU WHETHER YOU TOLD MR. MARITZ THAT BROWSER SHARE WAS A |
5 VERY, VERY IMPORTANT GOAL? |
6 ANSWER: I REMEMBER THAT WE AGREED THAT IT WAS AN |
7 IMPORTANT GOAL. I'M NOT SURE WHICH ONE OF US REACHED THAT |
8 FEELING BEFORE THE OTHER. |
9 QUESTION: DID YOU WRITE EXHIBIT 358, MR. GATES, |
10 ON OR ABOUT JANUARY 5, 1996? |
11 (END OF VIDEOTAPE EXCERPTS.) |
12 MR. BOIES: YOUR HONOR, DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 358 HAS |
13 BEEN MARKED AS GOVERNMENT TRIAL EXHIBIT 295. |
14 (VIDEOTAPE EXCERPT PLAYED AS FOLLOWS:) |
15 ANSWER: I DON'T REMEMBER DOING SO SPECIFICALLY, |
16 BUT IT APPEARS THAT I DID. |
17 QUESTION: AND THE FIRST LINE OF THIS IS, "WINNING |
18 INTERNET BROWSER SHARE IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT GOAL FOR |
19 US." |
20 DO YOU SEE THAT? |
21 ANSWER: I DO. |
22 QUESTION: DO YOU REMEMBER WRITING THAT, SIR? |
23 ANSWER: NOT SPECIFICALLY. |
24 QUESTION: NOW, WHEN YOU WERE REFERRING THERE TO |
25 INTERNET BROWSER SHARE, WHAT WERE THE COMPANIES WHO WERE |
13 |
1 INCLUDED IN THAT? |
2 ANSWER: THERE'S NO COMPANIES INCLUDED IN THAT. |
3 QUESTION: WELL, IF YOU'RE WINNING BROWSER SHARE, |
4 THAT MUST MEAN THAT SOME OTHER COMPANY IS PRODUCING BROWSERS |
5 AND YOU'RE COMPARING YOUR SHARE OF BROWSERS WITH SOMEBODY |
6 ELSE'S SHARE OF BROWSERS; IS THAT NOT SO, SIR? |
7 ANSWER: YOU ASKED ME IF THERE ARE ANY COMPANIES |
8 INCLUDED IN THAT AND NOW -- I'M VERY CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT |
9 YOU'RE ASKING. |
10 QUESTION: ALL RIGHT, SIR, LET ME SEE IF I CAN TRY |
11 TO CLARIFY. YOU SAY HERE, "WINNING INTERNET BROWSER SHARE |
12 IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT GOAL FOR US." WHAT COMPANIES WERE |
13 SUPPLYING BROWSERS WHOSE SHARE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT? |
14 ANSWER: IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT |
15 ANY OTHER COMPANIES IN THAT SENTENCE. |
16 QUESTION: WELL, SIR, IS A MARKET SHARE SOMETHING |
17 THAT IS COMPILED ONLY FOR ONE COMPANY? I UNDERSTAND IF A |
18 COMPANY HAS A MONOPOLY, THAT MAY BE SO, BUT IN A USUAL |
19 SITUATION WHERE A COMPANY DOES NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY, A SHARE |
20 ORDINARILY IMPLIES COMPARING HOW MUCH OF A PRODUCT ONE |
21 COMPANY HAS WITH HOW MUCH OF A PRODUCT ANOTHER COMPANY HAS; |
22 CORRECT? |
23 ANSWER: YES. |
24 QUESTION: NOW, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT |
25 INTERNET BROWSER SHARE HERE, WHAT COMPANIES WERE YOU TALKING |
14 |
1 ABOUT? |
2 ANSWER: YOU'RE TRYING -- YOU SEEM TO BE |
3 SUGGESTING THAT JUST BECAUSE SHARE INVOLVES COMPARING |
4 MULTIPLE COMPANIES, THAT WHEN I WROTE THAT SENTENCE I WAS |
5 TALKING ABOUT OTHER COMPANIES. IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO ME THAT |
6 I'M TALKING ABOUT OTHER COMPANIES IN THAT SENTENCE. I'VE |
7 REALLY READ IT VERY CAREFULLY AND I DON'T NOTICE ANY OTHER |
8 COMPANIES IN THERE. |
9 QUESTION: OH, YOU MEAN YOU DON'T SEE ANY OTHER |
10 COMPANY MENTIONED IN THAT SENTENCE; IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE |
11 SAYING? |
12 ANSWER: THE SENTENCE DOESN'T APPEAR TO DIRECTLY |
13 OR INDIRECTLY REFER TO ANY OTHER COMPANIES. |
14 QUESTION: WHEN YOU REFER TO AN INTERNET BROWSER |
15 SHARE HERE, SIR, WHAT IS THE SHARE OF? |
16 ANSWER: BROWSER USAGE. |
17 QUESTION: OF COURSE, YOU DON'T SAY BROWSER USAGE |
18 HERE, DO YOU SIR? |
19 ANSWER: NO, IT SAYS "SHARE." |
20 QUESTION: NOW, LET'S SAY THAT YOU MEANT BROWSER |
21 USAGE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOUR TESTIMONY IS. WHAT BROWSER |
22 USAGE WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF WHAT YOUR SHARE OF |
23 BROWSER USAGE WAS? WHAT BROWSERS? |
24 ANSWER: I'M NOT GETTING YOUR QUESTION. ARE YOU |
25 TRYING TO ASK WHAT I WAS THINKING WHEN I WROTE THIS |
15 |
1 SENTENCE? |
2 QUESTION: LET ME BEGIN WITH THAT. WHAT WERE YOU |
3 THINK WHEN YOU WROTE THIS SENTENCE? |
4 ANSWER: I DON'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY WRITING |
5 THIS SENTENCE. |
6 QUESTION: DOES THAT MEAN YOU CAN'T ANSWER WHAT |
7 YOU WERE THINKING WHEN YOU WROTE THE SENTENCE? |
8 ANSWER: THAT'S CORRECT. |
9 QUESTION: OKAY. SO SINCE THAT QUESTION IS THAT |
10 YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO -- YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO |
11 THAT QUESTION, LET ME PUT A DIFFERENT QUESTION. |
12 ANSWER: I HAVE AN ANSWER. THE ANSWER IS I DON'T |
13 REMEMBER. |
14 QUESTION: OKAY. YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHAT YOU |
15 MEANT. NOW, LET ME TRY TO ASK YOU -- |
16 ANSWER: I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT I WAS THINKING. |
17 QUESTION: IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN |
18 REMEMBERING WHAT YOU WERE THINKING AND REMEMBERING WHAT YOU |
19 MEANT? |
20 ANSWER: IF THE QUESTION IS WHAT I MEANT WHEN I |
21 WROTE IT, NO. |
22 QUESTION: OKAY. SO YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHAT YOU |
23 WERE THINKING WHEN YOU WROTE IT AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHAT |
24 YOU MEANT WHEN YOU WROTE IT; IS THAT FAIR? |
25 ANSWER: AS WELL AS NOT REMEMBER WRITING IT. |
16 |
1 QUESTION: OKAY. NOW, LET ME GO ON TO ANOTHER |
2 PARAGRAPH AND SEE WHETHER YOU REMEMBER WRITING THAT OR NOT. |
3 AND THAT IS THE SECOND PARAGRAPH, WHICH READS, "APPARENTLY A |
4 LOT OF OEM'S ARE BUNDLING NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS AND COMING |
5 UP WITH OFFERINGS TOGETHER WITH INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS |
6 THAT GET DISPLAYED ON THEIR MACHINES IN A FAR" -- AND YOU'VE |
7 CAPITALIZED EACH OF THE LETTERS IN FAR -- "MORE PROMINENT |
8 WAY THAN MSN OR OUR INTERNET BROWSER." |
9 DO YOU SEE THAT? |
10 ANSWER: UH-HUH. |
11 QUESTION: DID YOU WRITE THAT SENTENCE, MR. GATES? |
12 ANSWER: I DON'T REMEMBER, BUT I HAVE NO REASON TO |
13 DOUBT THAT I DID. |
14 QUESTION: DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU WERE THINKING |
15 WHEN YOU WROTE THAT SENTENCE OR WHAT YOU MEANT WHEN YOU |
16 WROTE THAT SENTENCE? |
17 ANSWER: NO. |
18 QUESTION: DO YOU REMEMBER THAT IN JANUARY, 1996, |
19 A LOT OF OEM'S WERE BUNDLING NON-MICROSOFT BROWSERS? |
20 ANSWER: I'M NOT SURE. |
21 QUESTION: WHAT WERE THE NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS |
22 THAT YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT IN JANUARY OF 1996? |
23 ANSWER: WHAT'S THE QUESTION? YOU'RE TRYING TO |
24 GET ME TO RECALL WHAT OTHER BROWSERS I WAS THINKING ABOUT |
25 WHEN I WROTE THAT SENTENCE? |
17 |
1 QUESTION: NO, BECAUSE YOU'VE TOLD ME THAT YOU |
2 DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT WHEN YOU WROTE THAT |
3 SENTENCE. |
4 ANSWER: RIGHT. |
5 QUESTION: WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS GET YOU TO |
6 TELL ME WHAT NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT |
7 IN JANUARY OF 1996. |
8 ANSWER: IF IT HAD BEEN ONLY ONE, I PROBABLY WOULD |
9 HAVE USED THE NAME OF IT. INSTEAD, I SEEM TO BE USING THE |
10 TERM NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS. |
11 QUESTION: MY QUESTION IS WHAT NON-MIRCOSOFT |
12 BROWSERS WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT IN JANUARY OF 1996? |
13 ANSWER: I'M SURE -- WHAT'S THE QUESTION? IS |
14 IT -- ARE YOU ASKING ME ABOUT WHEN I WROTE THIS E-MAIL OR |
15 WHAT ARE YOU ASKING ME ABOUT? |
16 QUESTION: I'M ASKING YOU ABOUT JANUARY OF 1996. |
17 ANSWER: THAT MONTH? |
18 QUESTION: YES, SIR. |
19 ANSWER: AND WHAT ABOUT IT? |
20 QUESTION: WHAT NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS WERE YOU |
21 CONCERNED ABOUT IN JANUARY OF 1996? |
22 ANSWER: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN "CONCERNED." |
23 QUESTION: WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE WORD "CONCERNED" |
24 THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND? |
25 ANSWER: I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY IT. |
18 |
1 QUESTION: IS -- |
2 ANSWER: IS THERE A DOCUMENT WHERE I USE THAT |
3 TERM? |
4 QUESTION: IS THE TERM "CONCERNED" A TERM THAT |
5 YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE? |
6 ANSWER: YES. |
7 QUESTION: DOES IT HAVE A MEANING THAT YOU'RE |
8 FAMILIAR WITH? |
9 ANSWER: YES. |
10 QUESTION: USING THE WORD "CONCERNED" CONSISTENT |
11 WITH THE NORMAL MEANING THAT IT HAS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, |
12 WHAT MICROSOFT -- OR WHAT NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS WERE YOU |
13 CONCERNED ABOUT IN JANUARY OF 1996? |
14 ANSWER: WELL, I THINK I WOULD HAVE BEEN CONCERNED |
15 ABOUT INTERNET EXPLORER, WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH IT. WE |
16 WOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT OTHER BROWSERS THAT WERE IN USE |
17 AT THE TIME. CERTAINLY NAVIGATOR WAS ONE OF THOSE. AND I |
18 DON'T KNOW WHICH BROWSER AOL WAS USING AT THE TIME, BUT IT |
19 WAS ANOTHER BROWSER. |
20 QUESTION: WHAT I'M ASKING, MR. GATES, IS WHAT |
21 OTHER BROWSERS OR WHAT NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS WERE YOU |
22 CONCERNED ABOUT IN JANUARY OF 1996? I'M NOT ASKING YOU WHAT |
23 YOU WERE LOOKING AT, ALTHOUGH THAT MAY BE PART OF THE |
24 ANSWER, AND I DON'T MEAN TO EXCLUDE IT, BUT WHAT |
25 NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT IN JANUARY |
19 |
1 OF 1996? |
2 ANSWER: WELL, OUR CONCERN WAS TO PROVIDE THE BEST |
3 INTERNET SUPPORT, AMONG OTHER THINGS, IN WINDOWS. AND IN |
4 DEALING WITH THAT CONCERN, I'M SURE WE LOOKED AT COMPETITIVE |
5 PRODUCTS, INCLUDING THE ONES I MENTIONED. |
6 QUESTION: LET ME TRY TO USE YOUR WORDS AND SEE IF |
7 WE CAN MOVE THIS ALONG. WHAT COMPETITIVE PRODUCTS DID YOU |
8 LOOK AT IN JANUARY OF 1996 IN TERMS OF BROWSERS? |
9 ANSWER: I DON'T REMEMBER LOOKING AT ANY SPECIFIC |
10 PRODUCTS DURING THAT MONTH. |
11 QUESTION: WERE THERE SPECIFIC COMPETITIVE |
12 PRODUCTS THAT IN JANUARY OF 1996 YOU WANTED TO INCREASE |
13 MICROSOFT'S SHARE WITH RESPECT TO THOSE PRODUCTS? |
14 MR. HEINER: OBJECTION. |
15 QUESTION: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, |
16 MR. GATES? |
17 ANSWER: I'M PAUSING TO SEE IF I CAN UNDERSTAND |
18 IT. |
19 QUESTION: IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, I'D BE |
20 HAPPY TO REPHRASE IT. |
21 ANSWER: GO AHEAD AND REPHRASE IT. I PROBABLY |
22 COULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD IT IF I THOUGHT ABOUT IT, BUT GO |
23 AHEAD. |
24 QUESTION: OKAY. IN JANUARY, 1996, YOU WERE AWARE |
25 THAT THERE WERE NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS THAT WERE BEING |
20 |
1 MARKETED; IS THAT CORRECT? |
2 ANSWER: I CAN'T REALLY CONFINE IT TO THAT MONTH, |
3 BUT I'M SURE IN THAT TIME PERIOD I WAS AWARE OF OTHER |
4 BROWSERS BEING OUT. |
5 QUESTION: AND WERE THOSE NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS, |
6 OR AT LEAST SOME OF THEM, BEING MARKETED IN COMPETITION WITH |
7 MICROSOFT'S BROWSER? |
8 ANSWER: USERS WERE MAKING CHOICES ABOUT WHICH |
9 BROWSER TO SELECT. |
10 QUESTION: IS THE TERM "COMPETITION" A TERM THAT |
11 YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH, MR. GATES? |
12 ANSWER: YES. |
13 QUESTION: AND DOES IT HAVE A MEANING IN THE |
14 ENGLISH LANGUAGE THAT YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH? |
15 ANSWER: ANY LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE QUESTION |
16 DOESN'T STEM FROM THE USE OF THAT WORD. |
17 QUESTION: OKAY. AND YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IS MEANT |
18 BY NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS, DO YOU NOT, SIR? |
19 ANSWER: NO. |
20 QUESTION: YOU DON'T? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING |
21 ME? YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS? |
22 ANSWER: YOU'LL HAVE TO BE MORE SPECIFIC. WHAT -- |
23 QUESTION: DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IS MEANT BY |
24 NON-MIRCOSOFT BROWSERS? |
25 ANSWER: IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT, I'D UNDERSTAND |
--- End of deposition transcript excerpt ---
